Comments on: How to Diss an Elder, the Dead, and Everyone Else http://gnosiscafe.com/gcblog/2007/11/06/how-to-diss-an-elder-the-dead-and-everyone-else/ Thoughts on Dreams, Life, and Spirit Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:54:32 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1 By: steward http://gnosiscafe.com/gcblog/2007/11/06/how-to-diss-an-elder-the-dead-and-everyone-else/#comment-7328 steward Fri, 07 Dec 2007 02:36:57 +0000 http://gnosiscafe.com/gcblog/2007/11/06/how-to-diss-an-elder-the-dead-and-everyone-else/#comment-7328 Just catching up on some blogs I get through RSS feeds... Ann Flowers had commented in part "I think Reclaiming needs an organisation for sorting out disputes and problems. From my own experience just cos people say they respect the p.o.u. and work with that as the rule, does not automatically mean they do!" unfortunately from the viewpoint of settling disputes, the pou are not a rule. In fact, I don't even see them as principles really, sort of more like a guiding prose-type poetry (I posted a poetic version a few years back on one of the Reclaiming lists.) Macha, I am sorry but unsurprised that you were treated badly. I understand that you wish that community to survive; but you also wrote that the hierarchy is unacknowledged and toxic. I would say that anyone who's had any contact in person or via lists with the SF Reclaiming community can acknowledge quite readily that there is a hierarchy that you deal with, and that it is toxic. It is acknowledged, but in secret, so it cannot be attacked. For a person to be a doormat, one person has to lie down and the other person has to do the stepping. It really appears to me that there are quite a few people in the SF community who are either tired of being doormats or else are tired of seeing others being doormats and don't know what to do. Have you considered the possibility that the SF Reclaiming community is just *too damn big*? That, possibly, there are too many corners of darkness to hide in? You can overthrow a hierarchy (the foot on the doormat) or you can remove what it has power over (move the doormat somewhere else and turn it into a tasteful wall-hanging ;>). Maybe it's time for the doormats and the disgusted observers of doormattry to form, say, the San Bruno Reclaiming community, or the Berkeley Reclaiming community. Since the foot steps in darkness... maybe the mat can leave. Just my 0.02 from the East, -steward Just catching up on some blogs I get through RSS feeds… Ann Flowers had commented in part

“I think Reclaiming needs an organisation for sorting out disputes and problems. From my own experience just cos people say they respect the p.o.u. and work with that as the rule, does not automatically mean they do!”

unfortunately from the viewpoint of settling disputes, the pou are not a rule. In fact, I don’t even see them as principles really, sort of more like a guiding prose-type poetry (I posted a poetic version a few years back on one of the Reclaiming lists.)

Macha, I am sorry but unsurprised that you were treated badly. I understand that you wish that community to survive; but you also wrote that the hierarchy is unacknowledged and toxic. I would say that anyone who’s had any contact in person or via lists with the SF Reclaiming community can acknowledge quite readily that there is a hierarchy that you deal with, and that it is toxic. It is acknowledged, but in secret, so it cannot be attacked.

For a person to be a doormat, one person has to lie down and the other person has to do the stepping. It really appears to me that there are quite a few people in the SF community who are either tired of being doormats or else are tired of seeing others being doormats and don’t know what to do.

Have you considered the possibility that the SF Reclaiming community is just *too damn big*? That, possibly, there are too many corners of darkness to hide in?

You can overthrow a hierarchy (the foot on the doormat) or you can remove what it has power over (move the doormat somewhere else and turn it into a tasteful wall-hanging ;>). Maybe it’s time for the doormats and the disgusted observers of doormattry to form, say, the San Bruno Reclaiming community, or the Berkeley Reclaiming community. Since the foot steps in darkness… maybe the mat can leave.

Just my 0.02 from the East,

-steward

]]> By: Macha http://gnosiscafe.com/gcblog/2007/11/06/how-to-diss-an-elder-the-dead-and-everyone-else/#comment-7299 Macha Mon, 26 Nov 2007 20:02:19 +0000 http://gnosiscafe.com/gcblog/2007/11/06/how-to-diss-an-elder-the-dead-and-everyone-else/#comment-7299 Andy sez: "I got sick of hearing about how non-hierarchical Reclaiming is when, to anyone who is unwilling to enslave their brain to the collective will, it is patently, ridiculously obvious that there are those who seek to be in with the in crowd, and those who seek to ingratiate themselves with those who appear to have power-over" Well said, Andy. I have been saying all along that Reclaiming has an _unacknowledged_ hierarchy which, IMO, is toxic. Macha Andy sez: “I got sick of hearing about how non-hierarchical Reclaiming is when, to anyone who is unwilling to enslave their brain to the collective will, it is patently, ridiculously obvious that there are those who seek to be in with the in crowd, and those who seek to ingratiate themselves with those who appear to have power-over”

Well said, Andy. I have been saying all along that Reclaiming has an _unacknowledged_ hierarchy which, IMO, is toxic.

Macha

]]> By: Andy aka Spicy Cauldron http://gnosiscafe.com/gcblog/2007/11/06/how-to-diss-an-elder-the-dead-and-everyone-else/#comment-7298 Andy aka Spicy Cauldron Mon, 26 Nov 2007 15:04:35 +0000 http://gnosiscafe.com/gcblog/2007/11/06/how-to-diss-an-elder-the-dead-and-everyone-else/#comment-7298 Smaller and harder-working. It's true that communities such as Reclaiming, but of course not only Reclaiming, can close ranks upon facing criticism, and the only result of that is going to be that they become smaller and close-minded. It's a strange comfort, the 'freedom of the empty church' as I call it. For some, the less people who are involved, the more special those who remain at the core feel to be part of a declining and incestuous community. It's easy to turn the upset of other people into the approval of the gods for your actions if you're so inclined. I still stick to Reclaiming Feri ideals and practices but long ago realised I wasn't welcome in the UK community for speaking my mind and sticking to my guns when I believed myself the victim of an injustice. I still feel like that, but the dispute was compounded by lies that were told, fences that were put up, and friendships ended simply because I had chosen to speak out. Bullying and lies and backstabbing do take place. I got sick of hearing about how non-hierarchical Reclaiming is when, to anyone who is unwilling to enslave their brain to the collective will, it is patently, ridiculously obvious that there are those who seek to be in with the in crowd, and those who seek to ingratiate themselves with those who appear to have power-over. No hierarchy my arse. Of course there's a hierarchy of privilege and power-over. But the emperor's new clothes are always popular; we can convince ourselves of our own finery if that is what we want to do. Excellent piece, thank you! x Smaller and harder-working. It’s true that communities such as Reclaiming, but of course not only Reclaiming, can close ranks upon facing criticism, and the only result of that is going to be that they become smaller and close-minded.

It’s a strange comfort, the ‘freedom of the empty church’ as I call it. For some, the less people who are involved, the more special those who remain at the core feel to be part of a declining and incestuous community. It’s easy to turn the upset of other people into the approval of the gods for your actions if you’re so inclined. I still stick to Reclaiming Feri ideals and practices but long ago realised I wasn’t welcome in the UK community for speaking my mind and sticking to my guns when I believed myself the victim of an injustice. I still feel like that, but the dispute was compounded by lies that were told, fences that were put up, and friendships ended simply because I had chosen to speak out.

Bullying and lies and backstabbing do take place. I got sick of hearing about how non-hierarchical Reclaiming is when, to anyone who is unwilling to enslave their brain to the collective will, it is patently, ridiculously obvious that there are those who seek to be in with the in crowd, and those who seek to ingratiate themselves with those who appear to have power-over. No hierarchy my arse. Of course there’s a hierarchy of privilege and power-over. But the emperor’s new clothes are always popular; we can convince ourselves of our own finery if that is what we want to do.

Excellent piece, thank you! x

]]> By: ann flowers http://gnosiscafe.com/gcblog/2007/11/06/how-to-diss-an-elder-the-dead-and-everyone-else/#comment-7274 ann flowers Fri, 09 Nov 2007 23:12:03 +0000 http://gnosiscafe.com/gcblog/2007/11/06/how-to-diss-an-elder-the-dead-and-everyone-else/#comment-7274 Well thanks for sharing that with folk. I did not know. I think Reclaiming needs an organisation for sorting out disputes and problems. From my own experience just cos people say they respect the p.o.u. and work with that as the rule, does not automatically mean they do! Course it is easier to work with the p.o.u. once you get rid of the people you do not like! or cause a problem etc etc and just have a group of like minded people who dare not oppose you. It will be interesting if Reclaiming rises to the bate and gets a system in place, owns the shadow side of some of the people? who knows? I attended spiral dance and actually got to say, enjoyed it, but then i did not know all this. No harm can come from speaking your truth? xann Well thanks for sharing that with folk. I did not know.
I think Reclaiming needs an organisation for sorting out disputes and
problems. From my own experience just cos people say they respect the p.o.u. and work with that as the rule, does not automatically mean they do!
Course it is easier to work with the p.o.u. once you get rid of the people you do not like! or cause a problem etc etc and just have a group of
like minded people who dare not oppose you.

It will be interesting if Reclaiming rises to the bate and gets a system in place, owns the shadow side of some of the people?

who knows? I attended spiral dance and actually got to say, enjoyed it,
but then i did not know all this.

No harm can come from speaking your truth?

xann

]]> By: Anne http://gnosiscafe.com/gcblog/2007/11/06/how-to-diss-an-elder-the-dead-and-everyone-else/#comment-7269 Anne Fri, 09 Nov 2007 00:14:28 +0000 http://gnosiscafe.com/gcblog/2007/11/06/how-to-diss-an-elder-the-dead-and-everyone-else/#comment-7269 I was reminded today that I actually missed something very important in my post. That is the use of sanctimony to counter dissent. As a tool of group oppression it is right up there with moral indignation, but more insidious because it is billed as a compassionate way to "hear" people's "stories" while not addressing real grievances in a concrete way. In fact, sanctimony is so deeply disturbing that it really requires its own post. Which I shall of course attempt, after burying a whole shitload of things in my garden tonight. Thank you everyone for the great comments. Back at you, Pandora. I was reminded today that I actually missed something very important in my post. That is the use of sanctimony to counter dissent. As a tool of group oppression it is right up there with moral indignation, but more insidious because it is billed as a compassionate way to “hear” people’s “stories” while not addressing real grievances in a concrete way.

In fact, sanctimony is so deeply disturbing that it really requires its own post. Which I shall of course attempt, after burying a whole shitload of things in my garden tonight.

Thank you everyone for the great comments. Back at you, Pandora.

]]> By: Sia http://gnosiscafe.com/gcblog/2007/11/06/how-to-diss-an-elder-the-dead-and-everyone-else/#comment-7267 Sia Thu, 08 Nov 2007 20:46:40 +0000 http://gnosiscafe.com/gcblog/2007/11/06/how-to-diss-an-elder-the-dead-and-everyone-else/#comment-7267 Thank you Anne for having the courage to say this. You know how I feel about the dance held after 9/11. Things don't seem to be improving and no one seems to be learning. Sia Thank you Anne for having the courage to say this.

You know how I feel about the dance held after 9/11. Things don’t seem to be improving and no one seems to be learning.

Sia

]]> By: Aurora http://gnosiscafe.com/gcblog/2007/11/06/how-to-diss-an-elder-the-dead-and-everyone-else/#comment-7265 Aurora Thu, 08 Nov 2007 20:01:24 +0000 http://gnosiscafe.com/gcblog/2007/11/06/how-to-diss-an-elder-the-dead-and-everyone-else/#comment-7265 Hmm, not any less than I would expect from such a scattered and unfocused group of selfish people who can't express their spirituality without flaunting their own needs (usually sexual). I am sick of the whole scene myself, and glad I missed it. Hmm, not any less than I would expect from such a scattered and unfocused group of selfish people who can’t express their spirituality without flaunting their own needs (usually sexual). I am sick of the whole scene myself, and glad I missed it.

]]> By: Hecate http://gnosiscafe.com/gcblog/2007/11/06/how-to-diss-an-elder-the-dead-and-everyone-else/#comment-7261 Hecate Thu, 08 Nov 2007 02:28:45 +0000 http://gnosiscafe.com/gcblog/2007/11/06/how-to-diss-an-elder-the-dead-and-everyone-else/#comment-7261 Oh, I am sorry that you all are having to go through this. Samhein was such a joy out here in Virginia for us. May the Goddess guard all of you. Blessings. Oh, I am sorry that you all are having to go through this. Samhein was such a joy out here in Virginia for us. May the Goddess guard all of you. Blessings.

]]> By: Macha http://gnosiscafe.com/gcblog/2007/11/06/how-to-diss-an-elder-the-dead-and-everyone-else/#comment-7260 Macha Thu, 08 Nov 2007 00:38:05 +0000 http://gnosiscafe.com/gcblog/2007/11/06/how-to-diss-an-elder-the-dead-and-everyone-else/#comment-7260 Thanks for this great post, Anne. As the disrespected elder in question, I'm much less riled than one might imagine me to be. I think that's because this is the kind of game-playing I've come to expect from that crew. Sad, huh? It pisses me off, yes, but I chose to take the higher road and take the role the organizers wanted me to do rather than one of three I volunteered for. To me, community trumps individual personalities, and I would like to see this particular community survive beyond its single charismatic leader (SCL). I have spoken of this to some of the chorus/band and tech people, who were entirely unaware that this skullduggery had been taking place. Now if they were not among the organizers (the SD cell), there is no reason they should have been aware. I just wonder how many of the actual cell members are aware. Somehow I don't think they'd feel that great about the process if they knew about it. I keep hoping someone will read this blog entry and send it to spiraldancefeedback@yahoogroups.com to give the organizers some of the 'specific' feedback they've asked for. Obviously I am not person to carry that particular banner. Yours in changing culture, Macha Thanks for this great post, Anne. As the disrespected elder in question, I’m much less riled than one might imagine me to be. I think that’s because this is the kind of game-playing I’ve come to expect from that crew. Sad, huh? It pisses me off, yes, but I chose to take the higher road and take the role the organizers wanted me to do rather than one of three I volunteered for. To me, community trumps individual personalities, and I would like to see this particular community survive beyond its single charismatic leader (SCL).

I have spoken of this to some of the chorus/band and tech people, who were entirely unaware that this skullduggery had been taking place. Now if they were not among the organizers (the SD cell), there is no reason they should have been aware. I just wonder how many of the actual cell members are aware. Somehow I don’t think they’d feel that great about the process if they knew about it.

I keep hoping someone will read this blog entry and send it to spiraldancefeedback@yahoogroups.com to give the organizers some of the ’specific’ feedback they’ve asked for. Obviously I am not person to carry that particular banner.

Yours in changing culture,
Macha

]]> By: Pandora http://gnosiscafe.com/gcblog/2007/11/06/how-to-diss-an-elder-the-dead-and-everyone-else/#comment-7259 Pandora Thu, 08 Nov 2007 00:03:46 +0000 http://gnosiscafe.com/gcblog/2007/11/06/how-to-diss-an-elder-the-dead-and-everyone-else/#comment-7259 Alas. Sorry for the dissing, dear; you're tops in my book! love love love love also much love. Alas.

Sorry for the dissing, dear; you’re tops in my book!

love love love love

also much love.

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